Curse

Jetdoc · Jun 11, 2008, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

Could some brave someone sum this up for me in one paragraph?

Here are some of the key snippets from Avarre's very eloquently written letter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

You continued to pander to the lowest denominator rather than improving your game. You know as well as everyone else does, that your game is dying. You’re milking that dying cow dry because you know Guild Wars 2 is coming, and in the process you’re killing your previous game off.

I don’t know who’s making changes to PvE. I don’t know why these changes are being made. Now, you’ve come in and said ‘nonono, we're going to give you skills that are ten times stronger so that you can have infinite success even if you're bad.’ A game that supports skill as a defining factor needs to adequately reward player skill, and this is the exact opposite. Guild Wars, in all its complexity, was built on a set of very basic principles – classes, and attributes. This was a huge success, it allowed for a very interesting style of M:TG skill setup and emphasized the importance of character skill design, while not punishing people for making the wrong choices (removing refund points was brilliant). Which one of you thought it was a good idea to throw this out the window with super-powered, no-attribute skills that allows you to play the game at a level of effectiveness that was unheard of before Nightfall without any attributes or other skills on your bar.

What I do have a problem with is you have shown, time and again, that you as developers and you as a company are willing to flat-out ignore your game design

This trend of development was really continued by your splitting of PvE and PvP. Uou split the skills of the game so that even if a new player wanted to get into PvP, they would have to first relearn the game. What does it say to new players, that you are knowingly strangling an entire section of your most committed fanbase in order to provide changes for the new players?

Make amends with the GW1 community. You need their support, and putting all your effort into finding new ways to piss them off is not good for you. This doesn’t mean revert all changes, it means find ways to appease all the players you can to some degree. This is impossible, but you got yourselves into this situation.

If one of your representatives, doesn't matter who, comes into this thread and posts 'I, <name>, announce that ArenaNet has given up the goal of Skill over Time within the game of Guild Wars', I will accept.

Whisper Evenstar · Jun 11, 2008, 02:10 PM // 14:10

I have to admit that I am bummed that I actually agree with this post. After almost 3 years I have stopped playing recently as there is nothing enjoyable/challenging left to do (I won't go into the laundry list of things I am not interested in doing anymore in a dumbed down state that is based on mindless grinding). I really hope somebody reads this and takes it to heart for GW2 design (and more importantly, stays true to the vision throughout).

Bring back the magic that was GW in chapter 1!

A few suggestions from back in those days (and looking at what I like in other games):
- Do tie skill acquisition to achievements (quests)
- Don't make all skills available at the first trainer you come across once they are unlocked. I don't want my level 5-10 to have a rockstar build - he shouldn't.
- Don't give me IMBA skills tied to mindless grinding.
- Do tie PVE skills to classes/attributes so they are not abused and overused.
- Do put in challenging missions that require groups to form and learn to work together to proceed in storyline. Learning to work together is a key factor in player growth, and leads to more competent PUGs (and enjoyment of the game) in the long run
- Do have fewer classes in GW2 and give each a specific and useful role.
- Do not give uber skills so weak/unwanted classes can do areas/etc where they are not typically welcome. See point above...
- Do improve monster group balance/AI/change their builds regularly in harder areas and try to give us more balanced and unexpected teams to fight.
- etc

/signed

Edited to add list

Kashrlyyk · Jun 11, 2008, 02:11 PM // 14:11

He acknowledges that PvE is badly designed with the overpowered monster skills/levels and that it would have been better to change that instead of introducing Ursan. And I agree.

But the whole "player development" is something that has been rejected by the majority of the PvE playerbase and it is good that ANet didn´t desperately cling to it. Most people don´t want to develop there "player skills", they want to have fun and relax after work.

Abedeus · Jun 11, 2008, 02:12 PM // 14:12

What can I say besides for /signed everything.

Bryant Again · Jun 11, 2008, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

But the whole "player development" is something that has been rejected by the majority of the PvE playerbase and it is good that ANet didn´t desperately cling to it. Most people don´t want to develop there "player skills", they want to have fun and relax after work.

Then provide for them without ruining the game for everyone.

Kashrlyyk · Jun 11, 2008, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Then provide for them without ruining the game for everyone.

Upier already said it, that would mean to completly redesign PvE! It is too much work for a 3 year old game. So hope that GW2 does it better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whisper Evenstar

I have to admit that I am bummed that I actually agree with this post. After almost 3 years I have stopped playing recently as there is nothing enjoyable/challenging left to do (I won't go into the laundry list of things I am not interested in doing anymore in a dumbed down state that is based on mindless grinding). I really hope somebody reads this and takes it to heart for GW2 design (and more importantly, stays true to the vision throughout).

Bring back the magic that was GW in chapter 1!

/signed

Where does that notion come from to think that a game has to be fun even after 3 years of constant playing??

aotdsyndrome · Jun 11, 2008, 02:18 PM // 14:18

*asks for a sticky*

You have, sir, won the internet, and my heart :3
Anet, read this, and learn.

Bryant Again · Jun 11, 2008, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Upier already said it, that would mean to completly redesign PvE!

No, my suggestion was to-

Shit, just read the other thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Where does that notion come from to think that a game has to be fun even after 3 years of constant playing??

Where does the notion come from that a game has to be turned into crap after 3 years of success?

Productivity · Jun 11, 2008, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Completely agree with the OP. Well written and said Avarre.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 11, 2008, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Well I did manage to skim through most of the post in more depth. I just can't say I'm in agreement with the "keeping PvE closer tied tied to PvP" because ultimately that was GW's PvP downfall, lack of thought, and testing, meeting deadlines, or simply a lack of understanding on newly released skills really turned many PvP'ers off time after time.

I do agree with the Ursan thing though, and indeed dumbing down the game isn't good for keeping the more dedicated crowd around.

Overall however I think Anet did a fairly good job in many departments, it seemed though over time they lost direction or simply could not cater to all the issues surrounding;
-keeping old players from leaving
-getting new players in
-balance for Pve and PvP

Songbringer · Jun 11, 2008, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Shoo it was so long that I kind of got tired reading it half way through but it was good stuff good stuff.

/agree with everything you said even in the half I didn't read.

Avarre · Jun 11, 2008, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

Well I did manage to skim through most of the post in more depth. I just can't say I'm in agreement with the "keeping PvE closer tied tied to PvP" because ultimately that was GW's PvP downfall, lack of thought, and testing, meeting deadlines, or simply a lack of understanding on newly released skills really turned many PvP'ers off time after time.

What I meant by that was designing PvE closer to PvP - in that mob groups were given decent skillbars and balanced groups rather than level 30 and supercharged skills. In that way something imbalanced in PvP would be similarly so in PvE, and hence balance for the sake of PvP would cause less disruption in PvE. At the same time, it would reduce the reliance on tanking/prot spirit etc, while rewarding skillful play as the mobs actually, to a degree, acted like players in their group. This wouldn't need to be in place in all areas, but it would make more interesting elite zones, in my view.

I don't think this would cripple PvP - it might actually help the movement of players across as PvE would be more similar to PvP. Balance would still be focused on PvP play, this would simply lessen the disruption of balance on PvE from balance changes not made for it.

ej2 · Jun 11, 2008, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Awesome post. Completely agree.
/signed

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 11, 2008, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

What I meant by that was designing PvE closer to PvP - in that mob groups were given decent skillbars and balanced groups rather than level 30 and supercharged skills. In that way something imbalanced in PvP would be similarly so in PvE, and hence balance for the sake of PvP would cause less disruption in PvE. At the same time, it would reduce the reliance on tanking/prot spirit etc, while rewarding skillful play as the mobs actually, to a degree, acted like players in their group.

Ahh I see, but too an extent no matter the skill bars used in PvE at least for the mobs, they will always be linear. PvP is always dynamic, changing, evolving, and if changes are ever made they break the mob skill bars, something which Anet could never keep up with. Hence the whole keeping PvE balanced or challenging at the same time as PvP never occurred.

Avarre · Jun 11, 2008, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

Ahh I see, but too an extent no matter the skill bars used in PvE at least for the mobs, they will always be linear. PvP is always dynamic, changing, evolving, and if changes are every made they break the mob skill bars, something which Anet could never keep up with.

Sure, but I'd enjoy playing against level 20-24 mobs with real skillbars than mobs with 1000 health and 400 damage invoke lightning. Even if it's just as static and linear (and it would be), it would still reward better play to go faster and more effectively.

Changes might cause problems with that, but then again, they do that for henchmen bars as well. As long as ANet has to think up mob skillbars, they might as well do a good job for the high-level areas. This makes sense, because using the same set of skills for two different playtypes (PvE being more one-dimensional with high-stat mobs rather than cohesive groups) clearly didn't work. ANet instead chose to create two games instead of refining one, which I did not agree with.

Tyla · Jun 11, 2008, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Alright, I read through the whole thing and I have to say, extremely good post.

cebalrai · Jun 11, 2008, 02:33 PM // 14:33

I hardly ever sign anything...

/SIGNED

zwei2stein · Jun 11, 2008, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

Well I did manage to skim through most of the post in more depth. I just can't say I'm in agreement with the "keeping PvE closer tied tied to PvP" because ultimately that was GW's PvP downfall, lack of thought, and testing, meeting deadlines, or simply a lack of understanding on newly released skills really turned many PvP'ers off time after time.

Influence also goes the other way.

PvP benefits PvE because of balances. Keeping power creep away and stuff. Besides, most of "awesome" skills we use are result of PvP buffs.

10e 1c 10r
For 15-60 seconds, target ally has a Splinter Weapon. Target ally's next successful attack deals 5-50 damage to all adjacent foes.

Remember this one?

Shiro's Prophet · Jun 11, 2008, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Extremely good post. Someone finally said it.

/signed

Killed u man · Jun 11, 2008, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Nice post. Besides a few spelling-mistakes (Sorry, but I just can't ignore them

), it was written pretty easy and well.

I actually WAS expecting a QQ-post, and it actually is. You do, however, have good points, and you're pretty much "whining" for what we all want to know: "Anet, what's the deal? U still give a shit about us, or should we uninstall right now?" -I bought the game few weeks after official release, played at a friend's house during beta-

The problem is that Anet's community relations are still bad. Obviously you're trying to reach them, but you can't tell a deaf man he's deaf...

I can only hope Regina (Or Andrew, any staff...) comes posting here: "We're working on some sever overhaul in GW1, to satisfy the GW1 community untill GW2 release", but then again, I doubt we'll get any anwser at all...